...making Linux just a little more fun!
Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]
Hello all --
This question is purely to test the water. I remember a good few
years ago now using a Sun workstation running some old version of
SunOS. One thing I remember about it clearly though is that it had a
cool keyboard with a whole set of keys down the far left-hand side
[1].
So I was wondering...
a) Is this keyboard standard? For instance, if I go looking for a "sun keyboard", I'm not going to encounter several different versions which work subtly different from one another, am I?
b) I've heard various rumours I'd need a sun <--> PC converter to use such a keyboard? Some websites say you need one, others don't even mention it. Some even say you build one, but I don't like the thought of this -- I'm a software engineer for a reason; I hate hardware.
Using it under Linux (X11 specifically) wouldn't be much of a problem.
I hope...
-- Thomas Adam
[1] Looked like this one does: https://sunstuff.org/hardware/components/keyboards/sun.type4-keyboard.2.jpg
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 12:35:39AM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote:
> Hello all -- > > This question is purely to test the water.I remember a good few > years ago now using a Sun workstation running some old version of > SunOS. One thing I remember about it clearly though is that it had a > cool keyboard with a whole set of keys down the far left-hand side > [1]. > > So I was wondering... > > a) Is this keyboard standard? For instance, if I go looking for a > "sun keyboard", I'm not going to encounter several different versions > which work subtly different from one another, am I?
I do a lot of teaching for Sun, so I get to see those things all the time. You are the only person I've ever heard of who has actually expressed a liking for one - they are universally hated and cursed at by all and sundry, since the key layout differs just slightly from the standard PC variety. Although I suppose that there has to be a group (a sizeable one, too) of fans somewhere: Sun has been making these keyboards for years and years now, and is usually pretty responsive to their customers' needs.
To answer your question, all the SPARC keyboards that I've seen in the last seven or so years have indeed had the same layout - but there are several different varieties (e.g., 4, 5, 5C, 6, 7, etc.) However, given your stated purpose, the answer is easy: buy one of the new (type 7) USB keyboards - which work with both SPARCs and PCs. Sample listing on eBay:
(a.k.a. 'https://tinyurl.com/39b6e7'.)
> b) I've heard various rumours I'd need a sun <--> PC converter to use > such a keyboard? Some websites say you need one, others don't even > mention it. Some even say you build one, but I don't like the thought > of this -- I'm a software engineer for a reason; I hate hardware. > > Using it under Linux (X11 specifically) wouldn't be much of a problem. > I hope...
It won't, once you get used to the odd layout (hint: watch out - it's
way too easy to hit 'Ctrl-S' on one of these. If your machine suddenly
"locks up", try 'Ctrl-Q' before rebooting) and learn to readjust every
time you're at a regular PC. Do note, however, that most of those "cool
keys" on the left won't be of any earthly use to you whatsoever:
'Stop-A', for example, will not cause your PC to drop into the PROM or
display 'ok' as a prompt.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * https://LinuxGazette.NET *
Kapil Hari Paranjape [kapil at imsc.res.in]
Hello,
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 12:35:39AM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote: > > Using it under Linux (X11 specifically) wouldn't be much of a problem. > > I hope...
Surely, it should be possible to use a suitable "keymap" under Linux to get the console to respond in some way to these keys. Getting the PROM display "would be a neat trick". (Quoting from adventure.[*])
I thought the question was about how one connects this keyboard to a standard PC's board. Some of the SUN keybds that I have seen plug into the "ps2" socket of a PC just fine --- YMMV.
Regards,
Kapil.
[*] For those who are unaware of this superb text-mode role playing game written in the 1970's --- play it. At some point in the game when the player tries to do something that is not programmed into the game the message "Doing that would be a neat trick!" is emitted. --
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 08:49:58AM +0530, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> Hello, > > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 12:35:39AM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote: > > > Using it under Linux (X11 specifically) wouldn't be much of a problem. > > > I hope...
Sure - but what would be the point? There would still be a problem of readjusting to "normal" keyboards - now even more complicated because there would be all those "missing" functions - and the question of figuring out what else a keyboard should do, complicated by the fact that people who design keyboards are professionals who do that exact thing - and they haven't managed to come up with anything else that's universally useful. The Sun keyboard has the extra keys *because SPARC machines have those extra functions that PCs don't.* Adding a polished gold faucet and a diamond-encrusted soap dish to a car doesn't make it into a bathtub - it just wastes money, time, and effort.
> Getting > the PROM display "would be a neat trick". (Quoting from adventure.[*])
Heh; I remember that. I'm even somewhat nostalgic for those early
efforts to give games (and computers overall) a personality; it was very
cool back then, and great fun. On the other hand, it did result in
Micr0s0ft Bob and the dancing paperclip... I suppose anything can be
taken too far.
Some PCs - and I don't recall which ones, but it was one of the big names - used to have a key combination you could hit, while the machine was running, that allowed you to access the BIOS. Sure, the changes wouldn't do anything until you rebooted - but it was a nice capability. On those machines, I could see tying 'Stop-A' to that function - but my point is that you only need the extra keys if you have the extra functionality.
Besides all that, we already have:
A. Bash aliases
B. Bash functions
C. Bash macros - i.e. the "C-x-(", "C-x-)", and "C-x-e" kit
and even
D. "~/.inputrc" for keyboard macros
> I thought the question was about how one connects this keyboard to > a standard PC's board. Some of the SUN keybds that I have seen plug > into the "ps2" socket of a PC just fine --- YMMV.
I took "connect" to mean both the physical matching and a requirement that the machine recognize it as a keyboard, and my recommendation for USB connectors and the ability to switch between SPARC and PC addressed both. IIRC, most Sun keyboards come with a 6-pin "mini-DIN" connector - a.k.a. PS/2. I don't know that just plugging one into a PC is going to work, but I don't think it would fry anything.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * https://LinuxGazette.NET *
Martin J Hooper [martinjh at blueyonder.co.uk]
Ben Okopnik wrote:
> D. "~/.inputrc" for keyboard macros
Anyone care to point me to a good tutorial? Binding CTRL-ALT_F1 to say apt-get upgrade for example might come in handy if I remember there is a keyboard shortcut... ;)
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 05:41:25PM +0100, Martin J Hooper wrote:
> Ben Okopnik wrote: > > D. "~/.inputrc" for keyboard macros > > > Anyone care to point me to a good tutorial? Binding CTRL-ALT_F1 > to say apt-get upgrade for example might come in handy if I > remember there is a keyboard shortcut... ;)
man bashSearch for 'Readline Initialization'. There's not much to it.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * https://LinuxGazette.NET *
René Pfeiffer [lynx at luchs.at]
On Jun 18, 2007 at 0035 +0100, Thomas Adam appeared and said:
> [...] > a) Is this keyboard standard? For instance, if I go looking for a > "sun keyboard", I'm not going to encounter several different versions > which work subtly different from one another, am I?
I've seen Sun keyboards described with "type 5" and "type 4" which is a
bad sign when I think of adapters and connectors.
> b) I've heard various rumours I'd need a sun <--> PC converter to use > such a keyboard? Some websites say you need one, others don't even > mention it. Some even say you build one, but I don't like the thought > of this -- I'm a software engineer for a reason; I hate hardware. > Using it under Linux (X11 specifically) wouldn't be much of a problem. > I hope...
Hm, I remember seeing a keyboard driver for Sun keyboards appearing in the Linux kernel configuration a while ago (CONFIG_KEYBOARD_SUNKBD in .config). It seems others like the keyboard as well. I haven't seen some for quite some while now.
You may have seen this site, but I found a reference for keyboard adapters.
https://www.optix.org/~dxy/sparc/keyboard/
> [1] Looked like this one does: > https://sunstuff.org/hardware/components/keyboards/sun.type4-keyboard.2.jpg
Looks nice from above, but I think getting international characters out of it might get a bit tricky.
Best wishes, René.
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:39:07PM +0200, René Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2007 at 0035 +0100, Thomas Adam appeared and said: > > > [1] Looked like this one does: > > https://sunstuff.org/hardware/components/keyboards/sun.type4-keyboard.2.jpg > > Looks nice from above, but I think getting international characters out > of it might get a bit tricky.
As I recall, the 'compose' key exists for exactly that purpose.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * https://LinuxGazette.NET *
René Pfeiffer [lynx at luchs.at]
On Jun 18, 2007 at 1144 -0400, Ben Okopnik appeared and said:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:39:07PM +0200, René Pfeiffer wrote: > > On Jun 18, 2007 at 0035 +0100, Thomas Adam appeared and said: > > > [1] Looked like this one does: > > > https://sunstuff.org/hardware/components/keyboards/sun.type4-keyboard2.jpg > > Looks nice from above, but I think getting international characters out > > of it might get a bit tricky. > As I recall, the 'compose' key exists for exactly that purpose.
Provided the keyboard layout is properly configured to use it. I've debugged some annoying typos in XFree and xorg config files (there is a difference between "pc104" and "pc105" when using "de" keyboard layout, or assuming to use it).
Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how widespread the 'compose' key is?
Best regards, René.
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 06:05:37PM +0200, René Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2007 at 1144 -0400, Ben Okopnik appeared and said: > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 02:39:07PM +0200, René Pfeiffer wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 2007 at 0035 +0100, Thomas Adam appeared and said: > > > > > > > [1] Looked like this one does: > > > > https://sunstuff.org/hardware/components/keyboards/sun.type4-keyboard.2.jpg > > > > > > Looks nice from above, but I think getting international characters out > > > of it might get a bit tricky. > > > > As I recall, the 'compose' key exists for exactly that purpose. > > Provided the keyboard layout is properly configured to use it. I've > debugged some annoying typos in XFree and xorg config files (there is > a difference between "pc104" and "pc105" when using "de" keyboard > layout, or assuming to use it).
[laugh] I quote: "As I recall, the 'compose' key exists for exactly that
purpose." That covers the entirety of what I know about it. Oh, I've
also heard about "dead keys" - they're supposed to have something to do
with international characters. That's all of it.
> Just out of curiousity, does anyone know how widespread the 'compose' > key is?
Again, as I understand it, you can enable them on any keyboard - I seem to recall that left-meta is used as 'compose' if the keyboard is set up as 'pc105'. At this point, I'm into "remembering stuff without understanding any of it" territory though.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * https://LinuxGazette.NET *
